I knew an artist who had aphantasia too. It's nice to see all these different ways of navigating through the world. I do have a TV in my head, I'm like a huge daydreamer, so I'm like your opposite I guess. But I never thought about how much it can change the way you think, like inner monologues and all. It was fascinating to read this. Thank for the post!
I've never tried any kind of hallucinogens actually, i don't know if i could see anything with that? Since aphantasia is brain-related, maybe a brain altering substance would make it change? I'm not interested in trying, but i should look into that, maybe someone did the research!
Thank you so much for sharing such personal detail about your experience. This is all new to me! A conversation with someone I care about led to the initial question and I’ve loved the comment section, learning from people who do and don’t think like me. Your post was so insightful for me! And it helps me to understand a few moments in my life where missed communication felt unavoidable but I never quite understood why. I have a lot to process and will likely come back to this a few more times. And I’m sharing with someone I know this will help! And I’ll also explore Philip K. Dick’s work. Thank you for sharing!
This is so interesting. I always thought imagination / picturing images in your brain was a muscle that required building. I had no idea that its naturally different for different people. That is, I think one of the reasons I actually like the application of AI here; coming up with more vivid pictures especially for fantasy. BUT I have to say no lack of inner monologue sounds utterly freeing. Working on that through meditation :) Great read!
And for the inner monologue, it's 100% a "grass is greener" thing, because i do my damndest to create one with journaling and stuff! I'm sure when you head is so full of stuff, you want to quieten it, but i kinda wish i had just a tiny bit of noise for myself 😂
I think it might be both actually! It's definitely true that you can build it up in many cases (see artists learning to imagine stuff, or authors getting better and better at making up worlds), but we also all start with different abilities. It's like i wasn't given a muscle there to being with ahah, so i can't make it grow!
This was absolutely fascinating, Rose! I recently came across the concept of aphantasia while studying Dr. Joel Pearson's work on intuition (he also specializes in aphantasia). Hearing your personal experience and how it shapes your reading preferences was illuminating. I'm probably as far on the opposite end of this spectrum as possible, with a very active visual imagination, which makes learning about our different inner worlds all the more intriguing. It's both fascinating to understand how others experience reality in ways I've taken for granted as universal, and exceptionally useful to consider as a writer. Really appreciate you sharing this perspective!
Thank you so much for the recommendation! I had never heard of him, somehow he slipped through the cracks when i researched the subject. He sounds absolutely fascinating, i'll have a look at this papers <3
Rose, thank you so much for writing this! Absolutely fascinating. Really enjoyed the parts about PKD and how first person POV often feels alienating. I’ve had that experience more often than not and tend to shy away from books written in the first person. But my recent fave, Demon Copperhead, blew that up for me. DC had a fun, rambling narrative that was felt grounded. And the voice was someone who you knew not enough people listened to and struggled with reality.
I keep seeing that book recommended everywhere recently, i really need to get to it!! You're description is one of the best, i'm so pumped for it now :))
1.) If you could “transliterate” your internal experience is (i.e. your narrator/commentator equivalent), how would it read?
2.) Granted, I read “Les Misérables” in English, but did you enjoy the narration in it? It was not an internal dialogue, though it was still something of a third-person omniscient view.
1) I'm not even going to attempt ahah! It's not something that's related to words at all, at least i don't think so. I don't have thoughts in words, unless i pretend i'm speaking aloud. Otherwise i guess it's just feelings and knowledge of things? It sounds so pretentious to write that down, but it's just like it's not made of language? A bit like the only way you can describe a scent is by comparing it to other scents, except it don't have other thoughts to compare it to that i can express out loud!
2) Les Misérables is amazing! I love omniscient narrators. They somehow don't give me the same ick. I think it's because i'm ever so slightly distanced from the character, so the uncanny valley doesn't manifest. It feels more like knowing all there is to know about the character, without pretending to be inside-their-head-but-it-doens't-work-like-in-mine.
Very interesting, Rose! I'm so curious about aphantasia now. I don't think I have it myself, because I haven't been bothered by visual references in writing in the past. But I am also not sure that I my mental images as as vivid as "seeing." You know how when someone describes a scent or a texture - you know what it from memory but not from actually experiencing it again. That's what mental images feel like to me. Is that different in aphantasia?!
Well, the things is, it's a) a spectrum and b) so completely subjective that it's hard to quantify!
There isn't really a criteria for it (like it's not in the DSM or anything). The apple diagram is usually helpful to see where you fall on the spectrum: on the left is hyperphantasia, people who can visualize vividly, as if they were seeing it for real, and on the right is me with aphantasia.
Most people fall in the middle though, like you. Some people can see a little bit, or just an outline! But it's so hard to compare what's in other people's heads!
Happy I read this! Okay, now I can ask you more follow-up questions lol When it comes to people and memory, what comes up for you when you remember and think of a loved one or another person you knew? Since you can’t see them in your mind, what is that experience like? I assume you can't see any memories at all? I’m wondering what it’s like to miss someone, but have no visual in your mind? Thinking about this is making me ponder if people with aphantasia are less tormented than those who can see their memories, or if it’s all the same.
Another question! How do you experience sensory details? Like sound, tactile sensations, and scent? How does that affect your experience of reading if at all??
Super intrigued by your connection to abstract concepts, too. I’m curious, how do those concepts manifest for you?? Like, is it some kind of emotional resonance for you, or are you able to “visualize” abstract ideas differently?? Even though abstract stuff is, well, abstract, associations with abstract concepts arise for me, so there’s something there, or I can poke at an abstract concept and maybe get a little bit of something there for me to connect with (even if it's vague), sometimes visually, or emotionally.
Ohh such good questions! I'll preface that by saying i'm also autistic, and that does impact both memory and how i interact with and feel about people, so it might not just be aphantasia speaking.
How do i remember people?
- i don't "remember" people much. In general, i have poor autobiographic memory (that is, memory about myself and events i've lived), which is associated with autism. I cannot see any memory of people, just as i can't see an apple
- when i remember someone, i kinda remember a feeling, if i like (or dislike) them very much, but otherwise there isn't really anything for me to feel emotionally. You're right that i don't feel tormented by people's deaths or absence at all, even close family members who have passed. But again, that's not linked to aphantasia or autism, i think it's really a personal thing. I repeat this a bit because of the old "autistic people have no empathy" myth which is very much not true.
How do i experience sensory details in books?
- simply put, i don't! And to be frank, that's what i love about reading. I'm autistic, so sensory things irl often put me in a state of distress, but in books i can "experience" all the things without being upset by it! Sounds are always too loud, scents too overpowering, textures too icky, so it's perfect for me to read them without feeling anything.
- it means i can read books with disgusting things without struggle, and just know it's bad when the character says so. However, i've found that i don't really like mysteries or thrillers that depend on those aspects because i don't feel very immersed in the thing. I do like "body horror" kinds of things though, somehow it fascinates me ahah
How do i "see" abstract concepts?
- i'm not sure i have the words to explain what it feels like to be honest. I can't see stuff, but i like "know" about them in a way? Like i can't visualize a square but i "understand" things about it?
- i guess "emotional resonance" is an interesting way to put it. I don't really feel "emotions" when i think about those, if only things like awe or that feeling of greatness when it's really huge things (like the concept of a cathedral, or "big" stuff like trade routes, or networks of some kind).
- i can definitely "poke" at the concepts, but it stays on the logical level of things, without ever coming out of the abstract. I do have associations to other abstract concepts (or even concrete ones, but i can't see them sooo) and i can "think" those relations, even if i can visualize them.
Alright, that was a lot, i tried to be a bit precise. But again, it's so difficult to talk about things that are in my head, and that i can't see ahah! Do ask more questions, it's so interesting to think about and compare with your experience :))
I saw Dumbo's pink elephants, does it count?
I knew an artist who had aphantasia too. It's nice to see all these different ways of navigating through the world. I do have a TV in my head, I'm like a huge daydreamer, so I'm like your opposite I guess. But I never thought about how much it can change the way you think, like inner monologues and all. It was fascinating to read this. Thank for the post!
I've never tried any kind of hallucinogens actually, i don't know if i could see anything with that? Since aphantasia is brain-related, maybe a brain altering substance would make it change? I'm not interested in trying, but i should look into that, maybe someone did the research!
Thank you so much for sharing such personal detail about your experience. This is all new to me! A conversation with someone I care about led to the initial question and I’ve loved the comment section, learning from people who do and don’t think like me. Your post was so insightful for me! And it helps me to understand a few moments in my life where missed communication felt unavoidable but I never quite understood why. I have a lot to process and will likely come back to this a few more times. And I’m sharing with someone I know this will help! And I’ll also explore Philip K. Dick’s work. Thank you for sharing!
I'm so glad i could shine some light on our experience of things :))
Please do pick up a PKD book one day, they really are amazing! The Scanner Darkly movie is also amazing and retains the soul of the original!
This is so interesting. I always thought imagination / picturing images in your brain was a muscle that required building. I had no idea that its naturally different for different people. That is, I think one of the reasons I actually like the application of AI here; coming up with more vivid pictures especially for fantasy. BUT I have to say no lack of inner monologue sounds utterly freeing. Working on that through meditation :) Great read!
And for the inner monologue, it's 100% a "grass is greener" thing, because i do my damndest to create one with journaling and stuff! I'm sure when you head is so full of stuff, you want to quieten it, but i kinda wish i had just a tiny bit of noise for myself 😂
I think it might be both actually! It's definitely true that you can build it up in many cases (see artists learning to imagine stuff, or authors getting better and better at making up worlds), but we also all start with different abilities. It's like i wasn't given a muscle there to being with ahah, so i can't make it grow!
This was absolutely fascinating, Rose! I recently came across the concept of aphantasia while studying Dr. Joel Pearson's work on intuition (he also specializes in aphantasia). Hearing your personal experience and how it shapes your reading preferences was illuminating. I'm probably as far on the opposite end of this spectrum as possible, with a very active visual imagination, which makes learning about our different inner worlds all the more intriguing. It's both fascinating to understand how others experience reality in ways I've taken for granted as universal, and exceptionally useful to consider as a writer. Really appreciate you sharing this perspective!
Thank you so much for the recommendation! I had never heard of him, somehow he slipped through the cracks when i researched the subject. He sounds absolutely fascinating, i'll have a look at this papers <3
Rose, thank you so much for writing this! Absolutely fascinating. Really enjoyed the parts about PKD and how first person POV often feels alienating. I’ve had that experience more often than not and tend to shy away from books written in the first person. But my recent fave, Demon Copperhead, blew that up for me. DC had a fun, rambling narrative that was felt grounded. And the voice was someone who you knew not enough people listened to and struggled with reality.
I keep seeing that book recommended everywhere recently, i really need to get to it!! You're description is one of the best, i'm so pumped for it now :))
Always enjoy reading your work, Rose!
I have two questions for you:
1.) If you could “transliterate” your internal experience is (i.e. your narrator/commentator equivalent), how would it read?
2.) Granted, I read “Les Misérables” in English, but did you enjoy the narration in it? It was not an internal dialogue, though it was still something of a third-person omniscient view.
Thank you Judah! To answer your questions:
1) I'm not even going to attempt ahah! It's not something that's related to words at all, at least i don't think so. I don't have thoughts in words, unless i pretend i'm speaking aloud. Otherwise i guess it's just feelings and knowledge of things? It sounds so pretentious to write that down, but it's just like it's not made of language? A bit like the only way you can describe a scent is by comparing it to other scents, except it don't have other thoughts to compare it to that i can express out loud!
2) Les Misérables is amazing! I love omniscient narrators. They somehow don't give me the same ick. I think it's because i'm ever so slightly distanced from the character, so the uncanny valley doesn't manifest. It feels more like knowing all there is to know about the character, without pretending to be inside-their-head-but-it-doens't-work-like-in-mine.
That makes sense, thank you!
Very interesting, Rose! I'm so curious about aphantasia now. I don't think I have it myself, because I haven't been bothered by visual references in writing in the past. But I am also not sure that I my mental images as as vivid as "seeing." You know how when someone describes a scent or a texture - you know what it from memory but not from actually experiencing it again. That's what mental images feel like to me. Is that different in aphantasia?!
Well, the things is, it's a) a spectrum and b) so completely subjective that it's hard to quantify!
There isn't really a criteria for it (like it's not in the DSM or anything). The apple diagram is usually helpful to see where you fall on the spectrum: on the left is hyperphantasia, people who can visualize vividly, as if they were seeing it for real, and on the right is me with aphantasia.
Most people fall in the middle though, like you. Some people can see a little bit, or just an outline! But it's so hard to compare what's in other people's heads!
Wow, fascinating, thanks!
Happy I read this! Okay, now I can ask you more follow-up questions lol When it comes to people and memory, what comes up for you when you remember and think of a loved one or another person you knew? Since you can’t see them in your mind, what is that experience like? I assume you can't see any memories at all? I’m wondering what it’s like to miss someone, but have no visual in your mind? Thinking about this is making me ponder if people with aphantasia are less tormented than those who can see their memories, or if it’s all the same.
Another question! How do you experience sensory details? Like sound, tactile sensations, and scent? How does that affect your experience of reading if at all??
Super intrigued by your connection to abstract concepts, too. I’m curious, how do those concepts manifest for you?? Like, is it some kind of emotional resonance for you, or are you able to “visualize” abstract ideas differently?? Even though abstract stuff is, well, abstract, associations with abstract concepts arise for me, so there’s something there, or I can poke at an abstract concept and maybe get a little bit of something there for me to connect with (even if it's vague), sometimes visually, or emotionally.
Ohh such good questions! I'll preface that by saying i'm also autistic, and that does impact both memory and how i interact with and feel about people, so it might not just be aphantasia speaking.
How do i remember people?
- i don't "remember" people much. In general, i have poor autobiographic memory (that is, memory about myself and events i've lived), which is associated with autism. I cannot see any memory of people, just as i can't see an apple
- when i remember someone, i kinda remember a feeling, if i like (or dislike) them very much, but otherwise there isn't really anything for me to feel emotionally. You're right that i don't feel tormented by people's deaths or absence at all, even close family members who have passed. But again, that's not linked to aphantasia or autism, i think it's really a personal thing. I repeat this a bit because of the old "autistic people have no empathy" myth which is very much not true.
How do i experience sensory details in books?
- simply put, i don't! And to be frank, that's what i love about reading. I'm autistic, so sensory things irl often put me in a state of distress, but in books i can "experience" all the things without being upset by it! Sounds are always too loud, scents too overpowering, textures too icky, so it's perfect for me to read them without feeling anything.
- it means i can read books with disgusting things without struggle, and just know it's bad when the character says so. However, i've found that i don't really like mysteries or thrillers that depend on those aspects because i don't feel very immersed in the thing. I do like "body horror" kinds of things though, somehow it fascinates me ahah
How do i "see" abstract concepts?
- i'm not sure i have the words to explain what it feels like to be honest. I can't see stuff, but i like "know" about them in a way? Like i can't visualize a square but i "understand" things about it?
- i guess "emotional resonance" is an interesting way to put it. I don't really feel "emotions" when i think about those, if only things like awe or that feeling of greatness when it's really huge things (like the concept of a cathedral, or "big" stuff like trade routes, or networks of some kind).
- i can definitely "poke" at the concepts, but it stays on the logical level of things, without ever coming out of the abstract. I do have associations to other abstract concepts (or even concrete ones, but i can't see them sooo) and i can "think" those relations, even if i can visualize them.
Alright, that was a lot, i tried to be a bit precise. But again, it's so difficult to talk about things that are in my head, and that i can't see ahah! Do ask more questions, it's so interesting to think about and compare with your experience :))